Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:04 Welcome to the NSYNC Insurance Podcast. I'm your host, Dawn Cross, and today we'll be discussing consulting, safety, procedures and complications in aesthetics. Here today we have guest Agnes Kak and Esthetician who delivers training in her company, Eastern Limited. Could you please introduce yourself and what you do in the company?
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Uh, good morning. My name is Snes Kozak. I've been in this industry for a very, very long time. I don't even like talking about, you know, how many years, but it's over 20 years. Um, what do I do? Um, I'm the company owner. My company is named Esda, l t d. We are based in uk but uh, I'm also international training provider for Sea Metastatics and other international companies. Um, and, um, I'm really, really happy to be, you know, actually to have my company in the UK because, uh, as I train all over the world, you know, as I train in different markets, I must say the therapists are really nice, are really nice in here. And, uh, it's absolutely lovely to work with people. There's not so much, you know, drama about things, you know, there's no, uh, lot of disputes and, and it's a nice environment to work. So, so I'm really privileged, uh, to be here and thank you for having me today.
Speaker 1 00:01:28 Yeah, well, thank you for coming on as well. I know especially with estheticians kind of schedules, that can be quite hectic, so I appreciate the time you've taken out of your day as well. So, um, today we're gonna be talking by, uh, consulting, safety procedures and complications. So I guess my first question for you, um, it kind of be to explain the kind of process with working injections with you. So you were saying before we had a brief discussion, um, about your training and stuff, so maybe you could, uh, start off with that.
Speaker 2 00:02:04 Yes, of course. Um, if it comes to injectables, uh, there's two very important things. Uh, first of all, it's the technique, uh, the technique which we are using. Uh, when we work with microneedling, when we work with, uh, mesotherapy, we need to remember that the knowledge of the skin, that the knowledge of anatomy and physiology is vital, uh, that we don't need to cause too much injury, that we need to adhere to the protocols provided by the trainer for the company trainer or manufacturer, because they have all the data behind. They have made the trials. So we should not be changing things ourselves because there is a reason why we should be keeping those protocols. Um,
Speaker 2 00:02:51 And as we were talking before, you know, with, uh, with the choice of the training provider for the technical, um, mesotherapy or microneedling parts, you know, you can go anywhere, but if you would like to use specific product, you actually need to go to the distributor. You need to go to the manufacturer because they are the only ones who are able to teach you the, the procedures. So you, you are going to be covered by your insurance, you're going to be safe, your patients are going to be safe. Uh, so when you are doing injectables, when you're doing consultation, you need to take many different things under consideration. First of all, which technique you're going to be using. Are you going to be using a massage, just superficial injury? Are you going to be, how the product is going to be, um, applied on, on the skin to the skin?
Speaker 2 00:03:43 So it would, you would have the best effect for your client, but also the safest effect. And we have to remember that the safety is always the priority. So accurate training, proper training, knowledge of the skin. You really need to know, uh, where you are injected. Why are you doing that? What can happen with the product if you're choosing the product? Do you have awareness of how long those, uh, substances are going to be deposited in the skin? If you are injecting fillers, you know, this is actual implant, you know, it's not a mesotherapy. You are implanting something and very often it's space in the skin for many, many, many years. Um, I have amazing luck to be able to work with the plastic surgeon and assisting with the plastic surgeries. And we had fillers which we had to remove, and they were implanted over seven years ago, and the patients were not aware that those fillers can still be there.
Speaker 2 00:04:42 So, but that's another sort of another area, you know, which, which, uh, is going to be regulated. And uh, honestly, I I, I don't have much opinion on that because I'm not dealing with the fillers. I don't do fillers. Um, I think there are other, other procedures like mesotherapy, which can, uh, have amazing, absolutely amazing effect and safe, safe effect. So with injectable safety, uh, if you know the technique, if you chose a new product, well, uh, that's the priority. Um, people are often asking, does the product have to be CE marked? And that's a sort of a gray area. I would say CE mark is very important, but CE mark is going to be changed. That's why many companies have it applied for CE mark at all. When you're purchasing product, ask for sterility, sterility certification. If the company has sterility certification and all the pharmaceutical ingredients, they will be able to confirm that in writing, and you will know that you working with the safe product, you know, the law in this area is changing as well.
Speaker 2 00:05:48 And coming, uh, to the consultation. You know, I, I mentioned a little bit about the safety. So of course, you know, knowledge of the technique, knowledge of the product, knowledge of your patient, you know, consultation is very, very important. Um, I'm using actually, you know, in sync consult, consult form, and uh, you sending the consultation form, I'm always sending medical form, uh, to the client. And I'm always sending specific procedure form to the client and post-treatment care and why those things are so important. First of all, before the procedure, you will be able to find out about any illness, um, pregnancy, breastfeeding, uh, autoimmune disorders. These are all contraindications to the treatment. If the client is telling you, oh, it's fine, I had this treatment before, would you take the risk? I wouldn't because you never know with autoimmune disorders how the body is going to react.
Speaker 2 00:06:45 You can cause cytokine storm, you can cause really bad complications, not because of the product, but because you inserted this needle, you caused inflammation, you caused cross reaction to, with the already existing condition. So it wasn't necessarily your fault. It, well, it was your fault because you ignored contraindications. So it's not the product or the technique. That's why it's so important. And if someone has, for example, condition as a diabetes, thyroid is very, very popular. Um, popular, unfortunately, uh, commonly sort of seen, um, condition. Um, if it's regulated, I always ask the consultant letter with the permission to perform the procedure. If I have consultant agreement that I can perform the procedure, then yes, it is, it's a doctor. He decided that I can cause this injury. The patient is covered, I'm covered. That's the most important. Uh, all other conditions, you know, where is someone working, you know, it's all in the consultation form.
Speaker 2 00:07:52 Where are they working, what are they doing? What job are they doing? You know, it's, are they going to go to the factory in the evening after you perform the procedure? Yes, very good. But you can expect infection because you, you cause so much injury on the face or on the body, you know, it doesn't matter what you do. The injectables, uh, pathogens are going to penetrate again, it's not going to be, it's going to be contraindications to the procedure. So fill in those forms, spend 20 minutes. I know it's a lot of time for the, for the co consultation. Always ask about medication. They're photo sensitizing medication. Uh, I've got the whole list list's, like, I don't know, over 70 subs, sensitizing medications. And I have this list actually on the wall because, you know, I don't remember all of the medications, but it's, it's really good to, to have it just to check it.
Speaker 2 00:08:39 'cause then you are going to choose the pill, which is for example, not photos, sensitizing, which is not going to cause reaction with those, um, medications. You're going to choose the products which are not sorts sensitizing. Um, so it's all needs to be, you know, thought through. It's, it's not quick process, but it's absolutely necessary for the best results. And next thing is the client. Is your patient able to purchase post procedure products? If not, do you really want to do this treatment? Because what they have at home can have really bad, uh, complications. Uh, I had the lady who had the procedure recently, it was a chemical pill procedure. And after the chemical pills, you know, someone is leaving the salon and you would see there. And now if the complication happened, and the complication wasn't, it wasn't my client, it was just a consultation, but the complication wasn't there and it appeared 48 hours after quite quite bad burns on the face.
Speaker 2 00:09:43 And you need to know, you know, even if the client tells you, oh, I haven't used anything, you need to know your science, you need to know your chemistry, and you need to know that if you apply the pill, if you do the pill and then the client applies the product containing retinol retinoids at home, their complication is going to appear up to 72 hours after the procedure. But it's you who need to know that. So you need to inform during the consultation, the client what they can't, what they can't do. They need to sign it. You need to give them extra notes to take home because people forget. Uh, also ask about antibiotics. You know, there was a, uh, there was a case when, um, the lady, I always, she was my student and she said, Agnes, but I did ask about the, um, medication.
Speaker 2 00:10:32 And I said, and what did he say? He was actually, you know, he was actually having, you know, problems with breathing, you know, we were on the phone all the time and uh, was like, no, there's no medication. He doesn't take anything. I said, you know, give me the phone. And I asked him, do you take an antibiotics? And he was, oh, just amoxicillin. But it was for my tooth and it was, you know, so for him it was a dentist who gave him a tablet. So it wasn't medication. I, I, I didn't quite understand the, the, the, the thought process, but for him it was prescribed by the dentist. So it was fine. It wasn't medication <laugh>. So be specific in your questions. It's, it's, you know, uh, so we knew what to do then, but be very specific in your question. It was very simple treatment. It was just application of the salicylic acid. And the reaction was horrid, absolutely horrid because he was taking high dose of antibiotics. So consultation, consultation, consultation is a vital, it's, I can't imagine any treatment without proper consultation.
Speaker 1 00:11:32 That's up to you. Fair. No, no, that was really thorough as well because, um, you know, I'm, I'm a person outside the industry and I, I don't, I didn't actually realize actually how much you really do need to make sure that, um, they understand what they're going through also to double check everything because things could react with each other. It can have a negative impact. So it's really good that, you know, you guys are thinking about that kind of thing. 'cause me personally, I wouldn't even think about that or how, you know, <laugh>, if I,
Speaker 2 00:12:02 You just go for the procedure and, and <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:12:05 Yeah, no, I, that's
Speaker 2 00:12:06 Why I don't call any of my treatments. Procedure is a skin transformation. 'cause transformation involves the whole process. So we talk about the diet, we talk about, you know, the lifestyle. We talk about what you are using before, what you're using after we talk about how long you're going to be using it for. Because if, you know, you don't have to know that you might need five procedures to have the best results. And probably you don't know that if you start doing those procedures, you're going to love it so much. You're going to continue for the rest of your life. But to keep the good skin, you actually need to go to see the therapist at least once a month. You know, so, and, and that's, that's it. Yeah. For the lifetime.
Speaker 1 00:12:43 That's completely fair. Um, okay, so moving on slightly, um, I did have a question, but I think you've absolutely smashed that is why <laugh>, why is it important to have safety procedures? This may seem like a silly question, but I'm thinking about those, um, maybe kind of just starting out in the industry or budding east Ians that might really wanna get out there. And I'm hoping that some of these episodes will help in our podcast. So, um, I guess like if you have any other knowledge that you know, why, on why it's important to have safety procedures? 'cause I think you've mostly covered it, but <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:13:20 <laugh> No, it's, it's, it's always, you know, there's two things, uh, which can happen. Um, and I'm going to just touch base on the training, but for me, the main safety procedure is the good quality training. I mentioned that before. You know, there's, uh, I was absolutely shocked when I have had seen an academy offering training in the protocols, which I wrote and which I provide. Uh, just after watching the Zoom webinar, it was, you know, the, the product knowledge, it wasn't technical, but they started offering the training, which is, you know, if they brave enough. Uh, but I don't think that should be happening. That's why we managed to ensure that all our trainings are trademarked. Uh, it's all legal documentation now. So every single product I'm using, you know, for how long you can keep it, you know who can use it, when can use it, it's all trademarked.
Speaker 2 00:14:16 It's all legal document now. So you can't just watch it and do it, you know, because you feel like it. Uh, but why am I talking about the training? During the training, you are going to be taught how to do the consultation, which I mentioned. Why is it so important? You're going to be taught another important thing, how to recognize which procedure to choose, because every scheme will need a different procedure. I haven't seen two patients on which I would do exactly the same procedure. Uh, it's again, consultation, the lifestyle, you know, what they do, how they planning to approach this skin transformation. Um, so you're going to be taught how to deal with, uh, certain product problems such as, you know, patients with psoriasis or clients with psoriasis or dermatitis, rosacea, not quite difficult to, uh, to deal with. Well, if you don't know how, of course.
Speaker 2 00:15:10 And, uh, the last thing which you are taught is how to deal with complications. Because as I mentioned before, I am not doing certain procedures because if I am unable to deal with complication, I shouldn't be doing it. I don't want to send anyone to the doctor. I don't want to send anyone to another therapist. I don't want to send clients worrying that, oh, give me five minutes, I'm going to find out what to do. No, I'm going to know what to do and I know what to do. And I ensure that those complications, which can happen to everyone. Only if you don't do any procedures, you don't have complications. If you don't have any patients, you won't have complications. But if you are working, there's always something which is going to happen, always, even little things, but you need to know which products to use, how often to use it, do you need to see your client?
Speaker 2 00:16:00 Or maybe you can just, uh, you know, tell them which product they should be using. Because remember, they have to have products at home. You always should be including, I dunno whether you put it in the price or you just, you know, you just ensure that the client purchases it from you. And I ha hear so many times, oh, but our clients don't want to purchase it. They go to boots and buy something. So of course, you know, they can do that. But those products, you know, which are bought off the shelves very often, they, the reason for the complication, and you don't, you haven't given the right post-product treatment to your client. So you are reliable for those complications. You shouldn't be doing the procedure if you know that they might be cross reaction with the product they use at home. But if you give them all the right products and if they phone in and say, listen, you know, I think I've got a little bit of a burn or I've got a little bit of, uh, inflammation. You tell them, use such and such product two or three times a day and you know it's going to work. So this is very important.
Speaker 1 00:17:08 No, that's completely fair. And it's, uh, I think it just sounds like you, it's like a whole different kind of knowledge base you need to build up really as well, isn't it? With, um, even just down to, you know, making sure to, you know, you can think of the right product to recommend.
Speaker 2 00:17:26 Yes, of course afterwards, course, but, but it's something you must know if you, if you deal with the human being with the face, with the skin, yeah, you know, you need to know it all because, you know, you don't go to the, uh, you know, cardiologist and he says, okay, uh, I will do the scan of your heart, but then I'll send you to someone else to read it. Or if you have a complication, you know, maybe I'll send you to a different hospital because, you know, I have a bit of a knowledge, but I'm still not there. And it's the same with the skin now. You cannot be not there. And, you know, uh, we always offer support to our students because I understand that it's a lot of knowledge. It's a lot of knowledge, uh, which is which needs time to be absorbed. That's why we have the group on Facebook. That's why people are able to message me now, uh, of course during the nighttime I get messages, but I'm not answering them because I still need my sleep. Of course, <laugh>. But we do <laugh>, we do have the support group, and I do support my students for the first, you know, two or three months until they build up this knowledge. If they have complication, this is the time when they can always phone me.
Speaker 1 00:18:33 That's really good. And you know, you said you've got so many years of experience in the belt, so your knowledge base must be absolutely expansive.
Speaker 2 00:18:43 We learn all the time, but too, you know, it's, I absolutely love learning. So, you know, I attend webinars myself, uh, you know, IMCAS Academy, I'm there, you know, every single day basically. Now, uh, and I do recommend people too, to sign up for the different training with different webinars, different websites. I do recommend reading, um, you know, uh, PubMed absolutely amazing resource for, for the skin science. You know, read about the products you're using, what exactly they do, how they behave in the skin, what, what reaction you can expect, how long they're going to stay in the skin. This is so important. And, and this will build your career. This will build your, your person as a, you know, the expert in the field. You know, expert. I don't like this word because I don't think we can ever be, you know, calling ourselves experts. We learn all our lives, but that will give you knowledge to, you know, to, to perform safe procedure. And you know, if you want to be the trainer, if you wanted to training, it'll give you the tools, uh, where you can pass this knowledge to your students.
Speaker 1 00:19:47 That's absolutely brilliant. And yeah, I think that's so key as well. You need to keep learning no matter what. Something new might pop along as well. So you can't always just be like, oh, so this is it. So I think moving on to our last question, um, you've spoken briefly, um, about complications occurring and stuff like that. Could you maybe give an example of two of a complication and how best to work with it?
Speaker 2 00:20:13 Uh, that's a very difficult one because, you know, every single complication is a different one, honestly. Of course. Yeah. It'll depend on the person. It'll depend on the, on the skin. Um, I will tell you what to do when you have a complication. First of all, you know, you must have, when you're contacting your insurance provider or when you just wanna provide the help, you must have your notes, you must have your consultation form because then you will be able to see, okay, this person works in such place, or maybe they work outside or maybe they have taken this medication, it could have caused reaction or, or, or something might have happened. So your consultation form pictures before the procedure and always after the procedure. Because quite often, uh, well very often patients don't clients, I call them patients. Uh, patients clients don't remember what they did, what they didn't have on the scheme.
Speaker 2 00:21:06 So you take the pictures before you take the pictures after the procedure, and then you are able also to show it to your insurance provider. Listen, they complaining that they had, uh, and this was actually the case, the lady complained that the procedure caused, uh, scar on her face and it wasn't quite possible, but she was actually going for the sue. And, uh, and, and you know, that this practitioner phoned me and she was like, oh, you know what, what do I do? You know, I did it as a therapy. Maybe I did cause this, this, I was like, first of all, she send me the consultation form, send me exactly which protocol you have used. Uh, I know she trained with me, so I didn't ask her for the training certificate. Um, and so send me pictures before and after, and she sent me the pictures.
Speaker 2 00:21:52 The pictures were, you know, luckily good quality. And I said, you know, can you just make it bigger? And this car was really visible there. So this guy was there before the client didn't remember that, you know, it was a little scar, you know, which looked more like a line, but it was actually a scar. And the client thought, you know, that the procedure, you know, caused this scar. But with, doesn't matter if it's just the client not remembering that they had certain, uh, you know, scar or, or, or, you know, problem on the skin. It could be, for example, with the chemical burns, you know, and you would be really surprised when I ask the practitioners, please send me, I always ask the same thing, send me the consultation form. Send me which procedure, which product to use, the number batch of the products, so I know where you purchased it from.
Speaker 2 00:22:39 'cause if you're purchasing off eBay, Amazon, I'm not even going to talk to you. Um, you know, so many fake products. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Why would you risk it? Uh, and send me the post procedure, uh, product, which you asked for the client to use. And very often this is where the conversation ends because they, they didn't do any of that. So I said, you know, I, you know, they, you need to realize that I'm here for you, but if you don't do it everything by the book, I can't help you. And definitely insurance companies, they're not going to even look at you, you know, to help you because you didn't follow the procedures. So with the complications, uh, have all the documentations and know how to deal with that, that, that's all, that's all.
Speaker 1 00:23:26 No, that's completely fair. And especially in terms of your insurance, it's really good to have that kind of paper trail and evidence that like, yes, we spoke about this and here's before and after. And, um, very key to remember, for anyone that's listening is to definitely make sure you have the right paperwork going on. I, I guess like an additional question is, is there any kind of tidbits of wisdom you'd like to share? Um, before we close the episode?
Speaker 2 00:23:55 Um,
Speaker 2 00:23:57 Love what you do, be passionate about. You do, and always learn. You know, don't think that going for the training, that reading books, that reading articles is a waste of time. It'll only expand your horizons. It'll only, you know, improve your knowledge, improve the safety, and don't try to do everything. It's, there's so many clinics who try to specialize in everything. Um, choose what you do the best, what would you like to do? And become the specialist. Because what I'm missing on UK market are the specialists. I know if I would like to do the protocol with Mesotherapy, with the skin improvement, I'm going to go to this clinic or such clinic. If I want to specialize in, if I want to do, I dunno Russian lips, I'm going to go to this person because they only specialize in that. And, uh, it seems like everyone is doing everything, and I know it's money, but, uh, maybe in the long term, uh, maybe with becoming changes, you do want to become an expert in a c certain field. And this is the path I have chosen, and honestly, I, I can recommend it.
Speaker 1 00:25:03 That's lovely. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2 00:25:08 Thank you for having me. It was absolute, uh, absolute pleasure. And, um, all the best and have a wonderful day everyone. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:25:17 Thank you to my guest today, Agnes Kozak for sharing her views on consulting, safety, procedures and complications within aesthetics. Don't forget to visit her website on www.askdermdoho.uk. To learn more about the aesthetic mask classes she has to offer. I have been your host, Dawn Cross and tune in next week for another episode. NSYNC is one of the UK's fastest growing insurance providers, offering comprehensive cover for SMEs and the self-employed across the uk. Our expert team can tailor your insurance to meet your individual business needs and compare prices from our Lloyds of London approved partners. We offer a five star service and have been FIFO platinum trusted winners three years in a row.
